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Very thoughtful post. Cheers, mate! Chinese people tend to have somewhat of an innocent perception of love and finding the ideal partner, yadi yadi ya. They might not get the entirety of your drift, though.

Good post.
Just one thing: it's not possible to access wikipedia in China...

Actually if you know what your doing its very accessible
[Community Manager: SZParty.com]
scott@shenzhenparty.com

i love this post . a lots western guys love asian chicks . but they just love to have sex with them .and then when they wanna be serious about relastionship , they complain about how hard to find an good girl ,said all the girls only wanna their money ,or passport , etc .be honest , not all the white guys here have MONEY .and a lots of them arent that good(personality) anyway . i seen so many of them.and about all the girls looking for serious relatsionship and that guys looking for an "guide" to show him around during the weekend on internet , totally diagree .and a lots guys they just know how to talk and talk .and never work and work . so i said to all the girls and guys , if u just wanna to play around go play around with those girls want the same things , not with those girls who want be serious .it will end up hurt each other only .
peace

Emily Hsu

About how accessible various web-sites are in China - I have a key word, or rather an acronym: VPN.

Reply to Alain: well, one would have to be an unusually educated Chinese to get "the entirety of my drift" :( Therein lies a catch 22: natives fluent in other languages and cultures don't need advice, while the ones who do need it are unlikely to be able to decipher it.

Speaking for myself, the most challenging part of life here is the near-impossibility of having a conversation . It is near impossible to find persons, either Chinese or foreign, with some degree of useful knowledge (or even interest) in fields like politics, history, anthropology, art history, literature, classical studies, astronomy...

I know I sound like a prick, but I am getting a bit tired of being off to HK every time I wish to read a book or have a pleasant dinner conversation on topics other than shopping and food.

...dinner conversation on topics other than shopping, food and work. Is the art of conversation dead here within the expat community?!

Talking about conversation here with people, for sure if you find someone have same culture with you,then easy to understand for the similar history,literature etc., meanwhile,how about expats who complain near-impossible to find the one with meaningful conversation can learn or just show a bit interest on Chinese literature,then maybe you would find some Chinese would like to talk with you.

Cherry

Well, what do you think of Gao Xingjian? Or of Dai Sijie?

:)

Show interest in Chinese literature in order to get a Chinese person to talk to you..uhuh..Expats tend to show interest in whatever country or culture they are in, more often you find that it is the new country or new culture that tends to not 'get' or be interested in the expats. How can we have meaningful conversations with people if they are not interested in things beyond the scope of their day to day lives?

Reply to Claudius: hmm,looks like you are very familiar with the Chinese writers who work and live in France,huh?

From both writers you want to talk to a Chinese actually nine out of ten Chinese, they have no idea for who they are, maybe for Dai sijie, some age around 50+, they know a bit, since people of that age,they have been living the time when Mao was chairman; but for Gao xingjian, even he won the year 2000 Nobel award, that doesn't mean Chinese people have to show a lot interest to him, maybe only for the people who works in literature industry, they would came up to see why this one won, and why not Bei dao or Li rui won;

Gao xingjian is so strange for Chinese,we even hardly find his book in book store...

So I know some international companies' CEO are reading Kong Zi or Lao Zi, Zhuang Zi, to help them manage the company, what do you think of, say Kong Zi? :-)

Cherry

Reply to Madswe: meaningful conversation means a lot, not only you have to show the same or similar interest with Chinese or any other countries of people; it depends on who you are talking to and what kind of relationship you wanna develop with this person; we are not talking about every time with everyone have to have a good conversation or whatever, we are talking about if one out of ten people you talked and had a good time, that's worth it right?

Cherry

Kong Zi, Lao Zi and Zhuang Zi

1) were not writers in the modern sense of the word;

2) died a billion years ago and I'm not sure how much of their work is relevant for modern times. (It's not their fault, but they were patriarchal, sexist and culturally isolationist.)

They're basically Chinese equivalents, grosso modo, of people like Plato and Aristotle. Great people, but hey, it's the 21st century. We stopped chopping off people's heads, thinking the Sun revolves around the Earth and keeping women locked, at least in Europe, centuries ago.

I read something of all of them and I can't say I enjoyed it too much.

Any Chinese writers from the 19th, 20th and 21st centuries I should know about?

I mean, when I think of writers from different countries, I make the following connections:

Japan - Murakami
Russia - Tolstoy, Dostoyevsky
France - oh so many
Germany - Hermann Hesse, Thomas Mann...
Brazil - Coelho
Turkey - Orhan Pamuk
Spain - Perez-Reverte
Peru - Vargas-Llosa
US - Kurt Vonnegut, Mark Twain and everyone in between
Canada - Michael Ondaatje
Britain - from Shakespeare to Auden and everyone in between
South Africa - Coetzee
India - Tagore

etc. etc.

Which connections should I make with "China"?

"it depends on who you are talking to and what kind of relationship you wanna develop with this person" meaning what? If I want to date them I talk about one thing, if we are friends I talk about different things??
So if I talk to 9 people and they say bad conversation, but 1 says good conversation it's all ok? Where is the logic in that?
How about instead of us showing an interest in books only the Nobel commitee would read, how about Chinese people showing an interest in the rest of the world. I'd be stunned if a single Chinese person could ask a question about the status of the new member countries into the European community, the fall of the US economy, or how the whole war on terrorism is just a sham..Really I would be stunned!

I feel so sorry for you that you even can't find a Chinese here to talk about those common question, I wondered if you lived in the cave, where is your Chinese colleagues? or you even don't have a Chinese friend or people around you unluckily they are like what you said have nothing interest to this world, that's too bad, I think its the time for you to reconsider your gangs;

You know if you are now in US and talking above stuff, I wouldn't be feel stunned, but you are in SZ man! While most US and Europeans were attending the GuangZhou exhibition fair twice a year, I went to ask them if they know Shenzhen, they replied to me:" what's SZ? I don't know."

China is a developing country, most of Chinese are working hard to help improving the position of China in this world, daily news,cental TV channel,HK news about this world, everyday people got millions of news from every side; so don't behave be stunned about if a single Chinese person could answer your question, this behavior make people LOL.

So actually we are talking about situation now in China, in SZ, don't turn it into an argument, please take a positive, or at least objective attitude to comment China, we don't want you to be a fanaticism for China, but not a frustrationcism, if so, why come to China, right?

Cherry

Reply to Claudius: there is no doubt that you are quite familiar with European, american's writes,and also the Japanese writer--Murakami,he has been heavily influenced by Western culture, particularly Western music and literature; So I understand that if you live in the place where is full of western literature, there is no choice to have Asia's,especially for China; the 10 years culture renovation in China has been heavily attacked the writers, as well as the Chinese literature which could be translated and published in western world, but we do have great writers, I can count so many here if you have patient to read, from 19th to 21th,

Lin Yu Tang(he has been studied overseas and then back to China,famous for short article);

Lu Xun,

Liang Shi Qiu,(famous for short article);

Zhang Ai Ling(the rencently famous movie lust .Caution's original writer);

Lao She (his books always been treated as to compete the Nobel literature award);

Ba Jin,

Bing Xin,

but these books you might know A Dream of red Mansions,Outlaws of the Marsh,they have been translated to English during 80's; one is talking about one of the ancient China's big family and history of that times;

There is saying for how to translate Chinese literature into English by a Sweden Nobel committee, he said "it should not translate Chinese into English by a Chinese, it needs an English person, a highly educated English person to translate Chinese into English, and this person should know Chinese very well as well"; well, it sounds hardly understand, but just for a reference.

But, you also opened my eyes regarding to knowing a foreigner at least has interests into Chinese literature; and still, I would like to recommend you to re-read Kong Zi,regarding his thought on friends,fortune,healthy etc.., even now we are modern sociaty, some thoughts are still useful; of course we don't have to accept all his thoughts like you mentioned "patriarchal, sexist and culturally isolationist", all the literature has influenced by the time when writers lived right? Maybe after millions years, our generation would be critically judged by future generation, hehe....

Cherry

I wondered why some of the content were removed by SZparty, so here I will repeat those two books name, one is (A Dream of Red Mansions), another is (outlaw of Marsh).

And (lust.caution) is originally wroted by Zhang Ai Ling.

Cherry

Nothing was removed, it was the format you used to post the comment, I have now fixed it for you.

[Community Manager: SZParty.com]
scott@shenzhenparty.com

Ups, thanks.

Cherry

I think you'll find that my comments were directed at the thread about meaningfull conversation, it was in no way a dig at Chinese people. In most if not all countries you will find people who are more interested in their immediate needs and interests than about the rest of the world. You adapt your conversations to suit those you are with, their english/spanish/french/german or whatever language level and their interests.
-The cave dweller

Thank you for that long post, Cherry; now all I have to do is to figure out how to get those books.

That being said, let's go back to the topic of "enlightened conversation". Where does one find educated Chinese?

I tried the bars, that was a bad idea. I went to the university, spoke to a few students and professors, but I'm afraid I, uhm, perhaps didn't find the right ones? :) I worked for a few months in an English-teaching school, where we'd get all sorts of people, mostly rich and sometimes well-traveled, but conversation didn't really work with these people either (perhaps it was the language barrier rather than a lack of common interests, though I tend to doubt it).

I've been to a few business soirees where people were able to talk about, uhm, business and that was it.

I've been looking for a good assistant once, for about a month, so I think I also know what 23-25-ish people can do (or think they can do).

Where should I go next in my quest for Chinese friends? The local arts museum? The opera-house?

Thank you for taking the time to read all of this; it is much appreciated.

I think this is quite important. I think of myself as fairly popular in other countries, and certainly I have friends in Shenzhen too. But they're all Westerners.

My Western friends don't have Chinese friends either. We have good acquaintances, good co-workers, sometimes girlfriends, but friends? Never heard of it.

Why?

Don't blame me, I do all I can :) I speak four languages already (English is my third) and I just started taking Chinese in school. You may guess I'm not unfriendly to other cultures. I have friends of all colors, ages, and a good assortment of nationalities and creeds. In Asia, I've had Korean and Thai friends (I love the Thai!). I've even had a Tibetan friend (that was in the US).

But not Chinese. And it baffles me. There are 1.5 billion people in this country, you'd think I'd find someone to talk to rather easily, but, uhm, no :)

Hey, Cave dweller,heheh..that's a cute name. Well, thank you for your explainations and wish you find your good conversationist here and enjoy!

Cherry

In western world, your forfathers have been experienced renaissance, enlightment movments, many regligon fights...and all those movments by your forfathers make you generation "educated" so you could have deeper conversations compared with Chinese.

If you look back to the world history, you will know that there is a 500 year's lag behind for China on science,philosophy, democracy and art compared with west during mid century, never an such big movment like "enlightment movement" in China happens. Your problem makes sense. I suggest you go university found students learning those major you want talk to, say as anthropology... Good luck to you..

BTW, we are busy making money now, we've been robbed a lot in history now we need spend more time win back.

To claudius.julianus , I feel surprised you don't have a Chinese friend u even live here!
I met a US girl from a fleight she sat next to me, we talked all the way for more than 2 hours, we talked all we interested in, like food, relationships, fashion, works, family, Olympic Games, color of eyes..lol.. and discussions on some phenomena like ways of dressing, the farming differences....so on.. And we even exchanged some recepis through email, and I am her Chinese friend now! We like each other we found we have a lot common words.
Maybe you need to be relax in choosing topics while trying making friends, not everyone likes talking deepr like anthropology, life is already hard for Chinese, don't give them more pressure, just relax and try laugh.. u would have more friends...

To Claudius,

And there is no reason not to say "thank you" for your post here.

I agree with you "perhaps it was the language barrier rather than a lack of common interests", I almost believe there is very few people like you can speak English like your mother language even it is your third but using it like your native, so most of people have difficulties to express themselves by using other languages even they are quite good at it.

I have to say that all your post here are very beautiful, even not use an extra word, they give people a happy-read journey, at least for me, no doubt you have so deep literature background.

Talking about the "enlightened conversation", for me, it could be a closet talk with my good girlfriend, a free and relax talk with a stranger in the afternoon tea time, a short talk with my client...it depends on people's expectation, even the whole conversation is not that spectacular, but if there is single word or sentence might inspirited you, I treated as worth it.

For my working related before, I had clients from Asia, Europe, American, and most of them I did have good time with, even it was just a drink after work,I cherished that time, since most of them were come and go due to their job assigned to different countries.

So, I really don't know about your case if it was like you said, maybe you are too top to find people talking with, it is like the higher mountain, the fewer people climb up, and especially you are a foreign higher mountain.. ;-)

Cherry

Ooh, "higher mountain", I like that! I guess I need to go write it neatly in my diary for future reference when I feel down :)

If it is the language barrier, let's see how I'll do using Chinese. Unfortunately, it will take me perhaps two more years to be good at it...

I should make it clear that I've had a good number of very enjoyable conversations here in China, but they were enjoyable for strictly social reasons. (We all like it when people give us attention, and when the chemistry works with someone else or with a group. We're all big cats who like to be petted.) I am a bit worried about my brain, though: it hasn't been engaged in at least a year. I do read magazines online and I try to keep up with the world, but I don't think it's nearly enough.

I'm getting circular thoughts more and more often (instead of going from one thought to another), and that is basically what I am unhappy about. I haven't done something new, I haven't thought something I hadn't thought before and I haven't been fascinated by a person in too long a time.

But I suppose that's something we all have to deal with.

I might take up racing of some kind. Nothing like a good adrenaline rush (and nothing like a broken limb to cool you down and make you appreciate a more peaceful existence).

Cheers all. Cherry, Sea Bird, thank you for your replies.

i want to know your story, lets chat over coffee....... my treat =]..

whats the topic again in this forum?, i think i am lost...=]

anyway ...i think we just need respect other people's differences, and try to help not just criticize, i am half-chinese, but still considered myself a foreigner , and i think we are not here to change their thought to be like ours or anything, =] just accept and respect =]

. sorry if i just pop up one second and ruin your conversations, and i hope you guys wont mind me sharing my thoughts on this, =]

if we think that we know a lot about life and experience being in other countries, tried all kind of things, taste different kind of food, then i guess it is our responsibility ,as a good person to share our knowledge with others,especially with people who doesnt have the priviledge to do what we have,
so there a lot of things we can do to make our life here in shenzhen more interesting, and harmonious with our host
and i think that this is one of the purpose of dating also,to exchange ideas, understanding cultures and learning and accepting each others differences... but sadly others ruin the idea of dating by maybe taking advantage of others,

peace! =]
anyway carry on with your chats, =]

Heheh...Higher Mountain, I wish you enjoy your Chinese class here.

Me too haven't been actively engaged in this society for over a year, and recently come back to it and I see amazing world...

Cherrs!

Cherry

haha, right! I found it absolutely right! because I even don't understand inglish....i am sorry to tell you the truth ...but I was going to post an Ad here,"I m looking for a young and good looking boy" I tried to write something en inglish,but I just could hardly start"I am XX" then mi poor inglish stuck there, compared with the other inglish speaking and multi-linguas speaking girls, I really feel ashame to be here...
but it's funny to contact people here, coz for a shy people , better to say hello to a boy in the middle of the road.and I don't think a boy will be interested in a not-good-looking girl.so why I have risk in the street?
depends what you want from here, from the people you meet.if everybody knows the rule of the game here, so what's the problem?
no?

The thing I find difficult here in regards to talking with locals about current events--especially pertaining to China--is that the heavily censored media that glorifies China makes it difficult for Chinese monolinguals to find access to unbiased (and I use this term lightly as I know everything is biased) information about anything. I can speak "okay" Chinese and, in mid-march, during the riots in Tibet, I just made a general remark to a non English-speaking colleague about some trouble in Tibet. She just looked astounded and asked me why there would ever be instability there....
As for myself--a religious sciences major--I hardly ever find anyone to talk to about anything more than the Olympics et al. I gave a presentation at an English corner (to mostly educated adults) a few weeks ago about pollution issues, and I was told by some students that the topic was too serious and lacking immediacy in respects to their lives. "That's the government's problem", one student said to me. The truth is that a lot of people here don't seem bothered about anything more than marriage and the "future" of China.
I have found students who were very interested in what I had to say about history, religion, cultural adaptation, etc., but rarely the case. I guess that one of the ironies about teaching English (to go off the topic of the thread a little) is that your awareness of the structure of language goes up, but the use you make of it on a daily basis degenerates....
Anyway, I do have foreign friends in Shenzhen who are well-read and, on some topics, more informed than I am. If, Claudius, you are looking for decent conversation, maybe you don't have to look as far as you think. Just, obviously not bars, where people might just be interested in small talk in hopes of getting free drinks or hooking up.
Cheers

I want to ask you claudius...Why are you in China? What do you like about it? If you your brain is not "engaged" by people here, why not leave?
Don't forget that you are in China. It's you who has to adapt to a new culture. You should understand the culture of the Chinese and not expect them to change is any way for you. You choose to come to China so...deal with it!

Very good suggestion. Practical and responsible.

To Alain, I think every country in this world has their own headache problems for their citizen,especially for the leader of the country. We as foreigners regarding to those countries firstly should respect the decision which they made and secondly if we want to comment on the issues, we should know as more as the reason of the problems, and after objectively knowing the whole story, then thirdly we can try to make our comment; this would mostly make your comment more objectively, since we are not living in those countries when we borned and we haven't had the daily life or experience there, we hardly can put our foot into their shoes exactly.

As a Chinese, I and lots of my friends knowing that there are some censored media in China which make quite a lot well-educated Chinese feel being fooled, but can you say that all the other countries in this world be totally opened to their public?

I believe there are only two kind of people in this society, one is people who knowing the lackness, but with positive attitude to face it and believe it will be better, while the other one is people who always complain everything, and can't stand others are better than themselves or hoping some bad luck happen to others.

And in this forum, I respect your comment on what you feel in China and your difficulties, and I also would like to tell you mine for above.

Cherry

Please respect other people's culture. What about yourself??

Oy "Sean Morris", my (probably) Chinese friend,

我不是抱怨中国。我是一个很好的佛教徒。我知道该怎么有害的负面想法是 ： ）

我只是有点难过，因为我无法找到类似的人到了我。就是如此恶劣？

即使是中国人，在深圳有同样的问题。很多人说， 1 ） 他们来这里只为钱和 2） 他们很孤独。

中国人，外国人，我们都是一样的。

Meme si parfois c'est vraiment dur hein? Y en a tellement des barrieres a depasser, tant des differences, du p de v emotionnel la chine c'est un peu comme une promenade sur un champ de mines, euh!

It is now!!

呵呵,看来你的中文还有待进步...

Cherry

Thank you, Cherry, for your articulate and dedicated post. I think I was expressing empathy in the first part of my post toward the ones being duped by incomplete media coverages. I guess, where I come from, individuals and media alike criticize the leaders and their decisions by default (and I'm ready--for the purpose of this argument--to accept that not everyone thinks it should be so). I should point out, however, that the ones who benefit from a country's policies--detrimental as may be to some segments of the population--will naturally defend them.
Having had a life relatively free of hardships thus far, it's probably easier for me to be cynical about the way information is being presented and how people sometimes--seemingly--unquestionably believe it. Essentially, merely realizing that there may possibly be a degree of discrepancy in every piece of perceived truth is a positive step forward that makes way for potentially interesting conversation.
To Irene, I don't think I was attacking anyone's culture here. Only people's apathetic choice to remain ignorant. Frustratingly enough, people in my country have a freedom of knowledge which they do not always exercise. It is simply less mind boggling for some people to accept a constructed truth than to change their lifestyles. Probably some of us lead such emotionally charged lives (either in a bliss of material happiness or in perpetual depression) that worrying about "questioning" demands too much mental effort. Or maybe only intellectuals and revolutionaries burden themselves with other's problems, I don't know (your country's current leaders are heirs to ones who did question authority at some point in the not too distant past, and that has brought forth positive change). As for the comments above, since this thread is about China, I quoted examples that pertain to life here. Rest assured I also have much to say about what goes on in my homeland.
Oui, Claudius, moi je trouve que si je me mele de mes affaires j'arrive quand meme a m'en sortir sans etre trop bouleverse. On s'amuse bien en Chine...c'est se faire une vie signifiante ici qui est l'experience la plus epuisante.

Hey Alain,

If you check out the newly published forum guidelines, you'll see that

"Profound Language will not be tolerated on the forum"

We need to go back to talking about shopping and weather, man :)

(Sorry Scott, I couldn't resist it :))

To Alain, your post is kind of complicated for me to totally understand I have to say that, but I can catch most of your thoughts.

And your words actually inspired me on how to deal and think with the different comment from all side,I always agree with that a mature society should have the enough space to accept all kind of voices; and for the past 10 years, China suddenly in people's mind from the illusion of getting stronger becomes the reality, I can imagine how people in this world feel about that; but I think Chinese should educate ourselves not only focus on developing the economy, but also the citizens' education as well as the mature attitude to this fabulous world, how to deal with the different voices from outside;

As all we aware that U.S has always been the NO.1 being criticized target by all over the world, not only because of they are acting as the "world police"... So Chinese need to suit with how to face with similar situation from now on;

Try to avoid other voices from all over the world is an emotional reason, but stand out to face all this with smile would be a better, mature way I think.

Cherry

Bonjour, Claudius, enchante!
It's a very good post,I am very impressed with Cherry's post as well.
I learned English the time when my mind is getting to shape a form, sorry to say that I love English better than Chinese, but I love Chinese culture too, just my mind takes English more easily when it is delivered in English, and I enjoy surrounding myself with Western cultures. I am conservative too, when I see Chinese girls with foreigners together, each time I worry about whether this is true relationship, I only limit myself to working with clients, never think of going out with a foreigner guy, I worry about the opionions of the society: see, this girl love foreigner's money. I also worry foreigners don't take relationships seriously, or they have so many choices, my ordinary looking would not hold him for long. So three years, I have no foreign friends having a good conversation in my spare times. I go to read in libruary, or watch American movies, listen to musics, I do have Chinese friends, but always there is no sparkle in any of the conversations, my sense of humor get lost. I am also afraid of the higher class Chinese, they are rich, not easy to approach.

So after three years, my career slowed down a bit, and stop to look back on my life, I got surprised, I lost 3years of good conversations.
I guess for a Chinese to learn a English, they always stand outside to look inside the room of people with other cultures, but never learned to put themselves into it, so any serious topic would kill them, politics, life, cultures, I think you can be a good listener if you don't understand the topic, and do some research later to show your respect and interest of your friend who have initiated this talking.

I don't know, I am in a world of nowhere, I always enjoy talking to friends.
Cheers! Let's be who we are, and life is too short.
Annie

Sometimes life ambivalent
I am local in Hangzhou . But trip in different cities in China . I saw the view like foreigners and Chinese girls together a lot......
I asked my boss some suggestion in that . Because I wanna know how to balance by myself . My boss is American . He told me , Everything need you know like or not , right or not , enjoy or not ......no body can control you.
I do my best balance well between foreigners and me . I also need choose the good person more better than good looking . If you real enter into foreigner's heart you will know them not real only like sex with Chinese girls . Some will be more traditional than Chinese guy . So we real need think about whether Chinese girls need do the real correct purpose not depend on bad thinking ?
Such as the Annie said if go with foreigner , have to face to strange eyes . So all the bad phenomenon harm all the Chinese girls
We are female , we can be independent and ability in work . Maybe will tired but fulfill everyday .
Everyone know how to do the real common life , whole world will be peaceful

Amanda

Hi Claudius, wanna hang out with us chinese singaporean frens instead? pm me jianzhou65@yahoo.com if you dont mind us...

well they r there, so many of them, just that they r not introduced to the western world becoz of so many various reasons. The major reason, i believe, is the same as why china (especially the new china) is never introduced to the western world properly and objectively, that we are a communism country, a growing one, which isnt supposed to be catching up the capitalism countries.

anyway, plz dont make such a quick conclusion for something u dont know. for the ones u didnt enjoy, well they r probably not ur style but dont mean that they arent good. did you check out "cultural view" in wikipedia as suggested in the original post yet?

I would also recommand the poems of GU CHENG, Chinese plays(like Chang sheng dian, Mu dan ting etc.), Zou zuo ren, and many others.

Hello, Claudius...

You are completely and utterly correct!

Improve your Chinese. Don't come to China to be an ass.

hi keqi, maybe i can help you with our english if its ok with you =], you should be proud of yourself that you have courage to try and express your ideas =]

I took the time to learn Chinese,and it has openend more than doors for me since coming here.i feel sorry for the foreign 'dudes and dudesses' who never took the time to study Chinese.Anyway ,the rarer it is for a white man to speak,read and write Chinese,the more it makes me look like an einstein.

Good for you, Shane!

I can't believe this thread is still alive after so much time! I must have hit a certain spot, ey...

Thanks to everyone who gave their two cents on the issue.

Cependant, j'ai aussi appris de ne pas demander l'impossible; certainement en Europe nous avons le grand avantage d'apprendre des langues entrangeres a l'ecole, et j'ai eu toujours la mauvaise habitude de considerer que les gens ne comprenant pas l'anglais n'etaient pas suffisamment eduques - en quelque sorte, pas vraiment dignes d'attention. (Je pense toujours que c'est honteux d'etre europeen ou americain et monolingue...)

Bon. Arrivé en Chine sans parler un mot de chinois, j'ai eu biensur quelques difficultés, mais avec une bonne dose de zen et quelques lessons de langue je pense que je suis en train de stabiliser la situation... Tout se passe bien pour le moment, je trouve ce pays assez convenable, et au moins que le ciel ne tombe sur nous... Life is good, quoi.

To Claudius ,

Congratulation first for this amazing Topic , as no doubt the most eye catching item in the forum !
Hope the above reply is not an closing speech .( there are lots of Franch I don’t understand )

Basically you drive the topic from the Ironic dating Ad to Making real friends in China. I ‘d like to share some thoughts here . In order to stand on the fact I try to be in the middle and neutral .
As China has opened it’s country gate for more than 20years , which unfortunately doesn’t mean it’s citizen’s mind has opened at the same time . That ‘s why People loves Thailand more sometimes ,for it’s English signs everywhere and never make you lost , known as a tourist’s heaven . China is huge in it’s size , population and history . ( I am not flatter to her ) , as well as it’s problems .For e.g the heavy pollution , human rights ,too good at copy and duplicating , dumping in International business , no traffic consciousness, lacking of Marketing restriction law and bias on Black people ….etc .We are not just talk about the problems but how deal with people here .

I think people come to China for two reasons : Money and Culture , or both of them . One of my South American friend come here to study Chinese for making business and finally he became love the culture. Then how to make friends here ?
1.To answer the Q , we need to find where to find Chinese first . As you probably know that , eating to Chinese is such a important thing that is more than satisfy the stomach itself . family get-together, Business negotiation , bidding, bribing ,birthday , Wedding ,house warming , all of the festivals are involved in eating . That’s why traditional Chinese don’t spend lots of time on coffee , party and Pubs . Therefore the best way is via social activities , like English Lecture, English Corner , Group Travel and People network . Chinese are more indrawn , not good at flirting , then you have to start the conversation first .

2. After meet some new friends, we start Information exchange. From Personal to National , from the past to present . I guess the first could last pretty long , coz there are so many things to talk : The city , hobby, music , movie , After meeting bunches of people , you may find that they like to improve the language command ability and act friendly . Lost of them don’t swim , don’t talk about sex in public , girls watch korea TV a lot , some times late for half an hour , people from all over the country speaks different dialect , Prison Break and friends is hot in China and Bill Gates is a genius and stupid for donating most of his Property , ordinary citizen don’t care about the political games a lot as long as the government controls high CPI and improve health care system it is good government . May be different people has different idea on the common ground of Chinese , believe it or not this is mostly true . You can tell some interesting and fresh news as well .

3. The next step is Background learning. It includes basic language and history study, maybe refer to Kongfu , traditional music ,opera , new business research …etc . Anyway , this is regarded as a very beneficial thing . U gonna know more specific and live Chinese mind .

4. The previous steps can make people know more about common topics and bring them closer. After that it is time to launch some “ project” , namely to do things together or help each other in life . Don’t hesitate to ask for help , most of Chinese are very friendly and kind .For e.g , you may apply to change you Driving License with the new friend , teach each other the mother languages , or go swimming , jogging ,shopping and watching movie …etc , things like friends do.
I used to help with my Friends on maintaining the orphanage . They raise some baby orphans , most of whom has some physical disability and they try to link them with free medication from the hospital and send them out to US families for adoption . They are from the U.S, are really great people and I learned a lot from them .

I think this is some general phases people going through when making new friends . The threshold maybe is the different way of people ‘s logic .cool down and try to understand and give your new way . It’s never to much for the ways to do things . Life is struggle , everyday comes up with trouble . Go and get it . It is no big deal .This is life .We all grow up from Problems 
I wish you have good friends and good time in the country .

Vivien

No offense to you, the English chap that posted here but you're forgetting something...

You are being critical of those who are ignorant about the western definition of love, courtship and marriage. But you're oblivious to the fact that there are those foreigners that are just as willing to investigate the Chinese definition of the same.

Everyone enters a relationship with preconceptions. Then over time there are always concessions. It's no different in cross cultural dating.

I met my Chinese girlfriend (now wife) online. We dated and later married. In the process my lifestyle has changed but so has hers. She didn't need to go to wikipedia and do some bull crap research.

You're advice is quite biased and impractical. Just let people see what's out there. If someone places a personal ad then meets someone they are either going to sink or swim. They are either going to make those cultural concessions needed to keep the relationship going or they aren't. It's as simple as that. Your comments pretty much tell me you're the kind of guy, like most British, that think your culture is perfect, you don't need to change anything and it's everyone else that needs to change to suit your tastes. It's this kind of arrogance that will make any of your cross cultural relationships doomed from the get go.

Good post.
The English Wikipedia is opened for Chinese, but the Chinese Wiki is still blocked coz it is considered as 'sensitive website' by CCP.

Thank you for your post, you are in China side. I agree with your point here. After reading all these posts here, I believe most of them are foreigners, and their definition of love, of posting ads here, of a relationship with Chinese chicks are more like:"Chinese girls are chasing us". A relationship is more like compromising, especially they are from 2 different countries. Let's put it in this way, and please no offense to anyone of you here...if you are in China, and if you are interesting in any girls from China, get to know their culture here, get to know something about them, but not asking them to search in wikipedia, why don't you search it? Why can't you just do something for this relationship if you really want it? I don't deny there are girls looking for money or a visa, and please do not forget that 50% maybe more of your guys are looking for sex.

Some men have no idea what to say to a woman. I guess religion has a small part here as well. In some religions men are not supposed to court their wives. They just picked the one they liked and that was that.

To Claudius Julianus - what can I say - poor you.
I have been here for week and a half and must admit, I have found some people with whom to discuss these topics with.
Could it be that you are looking for it in all the wrong places.

Of course, the majority really do discuss only the topics that you talk about...
Seems you have a keen interest in Romans by the looks of your name...
I am all for intelligent discussions, so in case you feel the need to discuss these subjects mentioned above (and I don't mean shopping lol!), please feel free to drop me some lines and I can mail you my e-mail address.
Dont know if by now your problem has been solved but anyway..

Take care,
T.